by Stop Mike Lupica on January 31 at 9:44PM
A little non-sports for you: The Big Lead linked earlier today to this post by the conservative website The Crypt's Blog. It's so embarrassingly typical of how political discussions occur in the U.S. nowadays.
Let's recap: This site posts an inflammatory piece about how the new tax "rebate" plan (mistake one: actually not a "rebate" plan, but a "redistribution") does not include a line preventing nonresident aliens from partaking in the redistribution. In fact, since I don't want to mistake anything, here is the exact wording:
The text of the House passed bill contains language making "non resident aliens" _ illegal immigrants _ ineligible for the tax rebates. But every year, hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants use individual taxpayer identification numbers, known as ITINs, to file income tax returns with the IRS. These ID numbers are used instead of Social Security numbers...
And then you have the comments, in which liberals defend the "right" of illegal immigrants to have the "rebate", why conservatives blast off on the illegals, as they often do. Because you know, illegals are ruining the country. "All that tax rebate money is going to get sent back to Mexico" can be found in the comments quite a bit.
90% of the commenters (both liberal and conservative) are misinformed. Why? Because that post was full of errors from the beginning, and those errors (pretty significant ones) changed the scope of the discussion into something that I'm guessing the conservative site wanted the discussion to be about. Either that or the author of that site is a total moron. I don't know.
Here's what I do know:
1. This tax plan is not a "rebate", it's a "redistribution". Yes, for most people, it amounts to a rebate. But not everyone is entitled to money back. That includes higher income people, and others. So for the liberals participating in the comments - I know you're trying, but come on. You make liberals sound stupid.
2. "Non-resident aliens" does not mean "illegal immigrants". Hold up, let me say that again: "NON RESIDENT ALIENS" DOES NOT EQUAL "ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS".
This is a tax issue, not a Homeland Security issue (formerly INS). Two separate governmental agencies, each with their own ways of handling the issue of foreigners. According to the IRS, "NRAs" refers to anyone who is not a U.S Citizen or Resident for tax purposes.
This means, in practice, foreigners. Not illegal foreigners, but the legal kind. The ones here temporarily, for example. Or the ones here longer than that, but not yet officially "legalized", meaning they are still waiting on their green card.
People here on A-visa types; those are ambassadors, diplomats, foreign government officials and their family members. You know, the people that work at the U.N., and in D.C.? Yeah, this article just called them "illegal immigrants".
People here on G-visa types; these people work here, in the U.S., legally. They work for international organizations (UNDP program staff, for example, or The World Bank's employees). They and their families are entitled to work here. They are non-resident aliens.
H1-Bs: Your Irish nurses, your Asian computer programmers - those aren't just stereotypes. Companies that have a problem finding qualified employees are allowed by the government to bring in foreign experts. There has always been a historic shortage of nurses in the US. This is why they get paid pretty well.
The O-visa types. That's foreigners with extraordinary skills in a field. The difference is the H1-Bs is used for filling positions that US companies have difficulty keeping staffed. Again, computer programming, nursing, etc. O is for something else... it's for an individual with a very specific talent.
You know who is almost certainly an O-visa holder? Yao Ming. Almost all foreign athletes have O-visa types. Foreign entertainers (whatever the hot British band of the moment is... I gave up on the UK after Coldplay) use P-visas.
Shouldn't the IRS collect some money from Yao, or Chris Martin if he makes money touring here? Of course they should. And they do. And that's what the IRS section on NRAs deals with. ITINs, another source of misinformation in that post, are just alternatives to SS# for NRAs. Since most NRAs don't plan on becoming U.S. citizens (Yao is going home someday, the diplomats are going home someday, the students on F-1 visas are going home after finishing college, etc), they don't need or apply for SS#. But they do need a number, so the IRS can keep tabs on them and their earnings. Hence an ITIN, or Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. Gee, that makes sense, no?
The IRS section on NRAs does not deal with "illegal immigrants". Illegal immigrants are extremely unlikely to be paying taxes. See, most employers that have illegal immigrant employees tend to pay them off the books. In cash. They are not reporting those costs to the IRS, and they are not withholding taxes on the money they are paying these people; in most cases, they are illegally paying them sub-minimum wage pay. That's how it works - the companies pay these illegal immigrants $3/hr to wash dishes in a diner, working 80 hour weeks, and save tons of dough on employee costs (salary, benefits, tax withholding, overtime, etc).
Most of those illegal immigrants are not filing taxes. They are not using ITINs, or SS#, or dealing with the IRS in any manner.
There are thousands... hundreds of thousands... legal immigrants working here legally in the US. Those are the people that this language effects. And honestly, I don't think it matters much if the government decides to refund them $300 or not. Most of those legal immigrants are taxed at different rates than U.S. Citizens to begin with (in case you care - NRA students get taxed at 14%; everyone else at 30%, regardless of income, though there are lots of rules that dictate what is considered income, etc).
800 comments, and only about 5 that I saw even dealt with straighten out the basic facts. All 5 of them are seemingly ignored, amidst the steady stream of liberals vs. conservative bullsh*t. No one cares about straightening out the facts. You think that website is going to fix their post, or issue a correction?!?
U.S. political discussions, in a nutshell. This is why, despite the bullsh*t in sports journalism, I still rather discuss and post about sports. No matter how much crap is going on here, no matter how stupid the sh*t I read (Mike Lupica) is... it's just less frustrating.
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Let's recap: This site posts an inflammatory piece about how the new tax "rebate" plan (mistake one: actually not a "rebate" plan, but a "redistribution") does not include a line preventing nonresident aliens from partaking in the redistribution. In fact, since I don't want to mistake anything, here is the exact wording:
The text of the House passed bill contains language making "non resident aliens" _ illegal immigrants _ ineligible for the tax rebates. But every year, hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants use individual taxpayer identification numbers, known as ITINs, to file income tax returns with the IRS. These ID numbers are used instead of Social Security numbers...
And then you have the comments, in which liberals defend the "right" of illegal immigrants to have the "rebate", why conservatives blast off on the illegals, as they often do. Because you know, illegals are ruining the country. "All that tax rebate money is going to get sent back to Mexico" can be found in the comments quite a bit.
90% of the commenters (both liberal and conservative) are misinformed. Why? Because that post was full of errors from the beginning, and those errors (pretty significant ones) changed the scope of the discussion into something that I'm guessing the conservative site wanted the discussion to be about. Either that or the author of that site is a total moron. I don't know.
Here's what I do know:
1. This tax plan is not a "rebate", it's a "redistribution". Yes, for most people, it amounts to a rebate. But not everyone is entitled to money back. That includes higher income people, and others. So for the liberals participating in the comments - I know you're trying, but come on. You make liberals sound stupid.
2. "Non-resident aliens" does not mean "illegal immigrants". Hold up, let me say that again: "NON RESIDENT ALIENS" DOES NOT EQUAL "ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS".
This is a tax issue, not a Homeland Security issue (formerly INS). Two separate governmental agencies, each with their own ways of handling the issue of foreigners. According to the IRS, "NRAs" refers to anyone who is not a U.S Citizen or Resident for tax purposes.
This means, in practice, foreigners. Not illegal foreigners, but the legal kind. The ones here temporarily, for example. Or the ones here longer than that, but not yet officially "legalized", meaning they are still waiting on their green card.
People here on A-visa types; those are ambassadors, diplomats, foreign government officials and their family members. You know, the people that work at the U.N., and in D.C.? Yeah, this article just called them "illegal immigrants".
People here on G-visa types; these people work here, in the U.S., legally. They work for international organizations (UNDP program staff, for example, or The World Bank's employees). They and their families are entitled to work here. They are non-resident aliens.
H1-Bs: Your Irish nurses, your Asian computer programmers - those aren't just stereotypes. Companies that have a problem finding qualified employees are allowed by the government to bring in foreign experts. There has always been a historic shortage of nurses in the US. This is why they get paid pretty well.
The O-visa types. That's foreigners with extraordinary skills in a field. The difference is the H1-Bs is used for filling positions that US companies have difficulty keeping staffed. Again, computer programming, nursing, etc. O is for something else... it's for an individual with a very specific talent.
You know who is almost certainly an O-visa holder? Yao Ming. Almost all foreign athletes have O-visa types. Foreign entertainers (whatever the hot British band of the moment is... I gave up on the UK after Coldplay) use P-visas.
Shouldn't the IRS collect some money from Yao, or Chris Martin if he makes money touring here? Of course they should. And they do. And that's what the IRS section on NRAs deals with. ITINs, another source of misinformation in that post, are just alternatives to SS# for NRAs. Since most NRAs don't plan on becoming U.S. citizens (Yao is going home someday, the diplomats are going home someday, the students on F-1 visas are going home after finishing college, etc), they don't need or apply for SS#. But they do need a number, so the IRS can keep tabs on them and their earnings. Hence an ITIN, or Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. Gee, that makes sense, no?
The IRS section on NRAs does not deal with "illegal immigrants". Illegal immigrants are extremely unlikely to be paying taxes. See, most employers that have illegal immigrant employees tend to pay them off the books. In cash. They are not reporting those costs to the IRS, and they are not withholding taxes on the money they are paying these people; in most cases, they are illegally paying them sub-minimum wage pay. That's how it works - the companies pay these illegal immigrants $3/hr to wash dishes in a diner, working 80 hour weeks, and save tons of dough on employee costs (salary, benefits, tax withholding, overtime, etc).
Most of those illegal immigrants are not filing taxes. They are not using ITINs, or SS#, or dealing with the IRS in any manner.
There are thousands... hundreds of thousands... legal immigrants working here legally in the US. Those are the people that this language effects. And honestly, I don't think it matters much if the government decides to refund them $300 or not. Most of those legal immigrants are taxed at different rates than U.S. Citizens to begin with (in case you care - NRA students get taxed at 14%; everyone else at 30%, regardless of income, though there are lots of rules that dictate what is considered income, etc).
800 comments, and only about 5 that I saw even dealt with straighten out the basic facts. All 5 of them are seemingly ignored, amidst the steady stream of liberals vs. conservative bullsh*t. No one cares about straightening out the facts. You think that website is going to fix their post, or issue a correction?!?
U.S. political discussions, in a nutshell. This is why, despite the bullsh*t in sports journalism, I still rather discuss and post about sports. No matter how much crap is going on here, no matter how stupid the sh*t I read (Mike Lupica) is... it's just less frustrating.
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6 Comments
Comments
stopmikelupica
said
No doubt. It's been all over the conservative blogs. Misinformation travels fast...
Great point about the H1-B visas and the HB-145 (spell?) visas that allow us to get foreign experts into this country. Often those people make a lot of money (deservedly, they're experts), so we're not talking just about min. wage folks. Liked the blog!
stopmikelupica
said
Thanks MC Bias. The thing about illegal immigrants is that they aren't even "mininum wage" folk... they're sub-minimum wage folk. Which means they are paid outside the tax system.
If they want to frame the discussion on the "lost" income that the IRS isn't getting from illegals, then fine. But they don't want to frame the discussion in that manner, because then it turns to policing the businesses that use illegal immigrants, since it is an employer's responsibility to withhold taxes on wages paid. Rather than to have that discussion, you see a lot of conservative blogs try to scapegoat the illegals themselves, instead of their fellow American businessmen and women who cut costs by hiring them...
This article deals with what frustrates me on a daily basis. Television, print, and internet news seem to contain less and less facts and more opinions. It takes an effort to become informed on a topic, so naturally why not take the easy route and yell about topics that we have no idea about.
stopmikelupica
said
Fish: Yep. That sums it up, in much better and concise words than I could have put it myself.
Just like to point out i found the story prominently displayed on Drudge Report Thursday morning.