I should preface this post by reminding everyone that Jordan is one of, if not the, greatest basketball players of all time, and this is not suppose to diminish his accomplishments or achievements. It's suppose to be a reminder, if anything, that great players may be great in any setting, but to become the type of star that dominates the game like Jordan did, you have to have some help. Pippen was more than just a role player, damn it. He was one of the greatest talents we'll ever see in our lives, too. But he's destined to be underappreciated.
Here are some of the comments I made, edited to hopefully string into coherent thoughts:
Pippen and how you feel about Pippen, is the ultimate
litmus test. I don't know what the right or wrong answer is, but I know how
where I fall on the Pippen debate: Without Pippen, Jordan is not winning six titles, or, to be
fairer, he may have won six titles, but not as the leader of the team - only if
paired with another stud, must likely a center (like Ewing or someone), who
would have cut into his credit.
The 2nd banana might be #2 in the hierarchy of "shooting the shot" or "controlling the ball movement" or whatever
measure of offense you can come up with, but... yeah, he can be the most
important player on the team even from that #2 slot. Pippen will never get the
proper due, but in the Bulls' system Pippen was the irreplaceable
piece, not Jordan. Replace Jordan with a comparable SG at the time (Dominque?
That may not be the best choice, but whatever). The Bulls aren't as great, but
are still a legit contender (see '94, as Jordan-less Bulls team came within a
suspect Hue Davis foul of making the Conference Finals). There's no SF that
could have taken Pippen's place, though.
And the idea that Derrick McKey could have replaced
Pippen is more offensive than anything I've said about Jordan. Pippen is
why the Bulls could win in a non-traditional system, one in which there wasn't a
strong center.
Channeling Fabolous: Jordan may have been a movement all by himself, but he's a
force when they're together. Pippen makes him better.
Tom asked "Could MJ have won with Marion or Odom?"
Hell no to Odom, possibly to Marion. Sh*t, stop disrespecting Pippen! Odom?!?
Odom has always had the potential to be a Pippen, but not the mental focus.
Pippen existed; Odom is just a myth.
I said it was the litmus test.
Listen, building Jordan up is fine. He's the greatest SG of all time, and
probably the greatest player of all time. But don't do it at Pippen's expense.
Even the other possibility for the GOAT (Wilt) didn't win championships every
year. You don't do it solo, and you don't do it as a SG carrying the team unless
you are blessed with another amazing one of a kind talent.
Without
Pippen, Jordan would be unlikely to have won championship after championship as
the first option. That's just how the NBA works. Jordan's moves were unstoppable?
Agree. So are Kobe's, though. How far is he getting in his
prime?
Regardless, the point is this: Pippen was a top-50 player of all
time. That's a fact. But he was much better than that. He was one of the best
players we'll ever see - he could do whatever was needed, like a prototype of
KG. He could play hard defense, rebound, shoot from anywhere, and like Ty said,
he could post up if needed. He was 6'8, and able to post like a big man! He was
more like a Magic Johnson minus the extreme ball handling skills, confined to
playing SF and second banana.
Then someone busted out the old "Batman & Robin" analogy with Jordan and Pippen, which is what always bothers me! My response:
The Batman and Robin analogy is exactly what I hate about the conversations
about Pippen! Listen, if the Rockets win a championship next year (I'm betting
on them right now, given they have the system, including viable third and fourth
options), is anyone going to imply that either T-Mac or Yao is a "Robin"? Does
anyone really think of Kobe or Wade as "Robin" to Shaq's "Batman"? Or vice
versa?
That's exactly my point.
Anyway, I'll let the discussion
on Pippen end, because it ain't really the point of Shoals' post. But here is a
good tie-in: What if next year Pierce is the alpha male in Boston? And KG is the
second banana doing what needs to be done, like a Pippen? What effect will that
have on KG's reputation? Would anyone really consider him a "Robin" to Pierce's
"Batman"?
That's the problem I have with Pippen's legacy. He's not just the greatest "supporting" player of all time. He's not just a role player, or even a "second banana". He's a bonifide
Scottie Pippen 91-92 season: 21 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 7.0 apg, 1.9 spg, 1.1 bpg, 50.6 FG%, 76 FT%, 3.09 TO/gm
LeBron James 04-05 season (his best to date): 27.2 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 7.2 apg, 2.2 apg, 0.6 bpg, 47.2 FG%, 75 FT% 3.28 TO/gm
Keep in mind that LeBron's scoring was higher because he is not only the #1 option on the Cavs, but the #2 and #3 options, too. Pippen, on the other hand, had Jordan as the #1 option. Point being that Pippen's numbers are very much comparable to the best numbers LeBron has put up so far in his splendid career.
When Wilt Chamberlain needed Jerry West to win a championship (or Hal Greer earlier in his career), did anyone lower their opinion of Jerry West's career? Not really - most people today even think greater of Jerry West than they did back then.
Scottie Pippen's versatility and willingness to allow Jordan to shine allowed the Bulls to become the first, and only team, to win championship after championship lead by wing players, not post players.
Update: Another Free Darko reader/blogger named Ty Keenan wrote a related post on the value of role players/secondary stars. It's worth a read (as is his site) over at West Coast Basketball.
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Excellent work on this one, SML. I won't repeat the same arguments we had in the thread over here; I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed it. I'm in favor of anything that gives Pippen his due.
Thanks Ty. I edited the entry to add a link to your post on the topic.
Thanks, man. One more thing to change, though: blog is Plissken at the Buzzer, url is westcoastbasketball--real name is impossible to read in the url box. No worries and thanks again.
Very well done. I have to say I agree with most of what you have said here. Pippen took a lot of pressure off of Jordan, especially on the defensive end, that no other player in the league could have done at the time. I think Marion could have done a similar job, but we'll never know.
The thing I always like about Pip was that he was a leader on the floor. When MJ was in the game, MJ was the leader as far as scoring, but Pip would be the guy the other players would look to in order to get them into the offense, if in trouble, or to come up with the big steal/block/charge. He did everything that Jordan didn't do and that's not because Jordan wouldn't do it, it's because he didn't have to.
So, by taking this pressure off Jordan he helped him become the player he was. I still think Jordan could have won the title in a different offense with a different #2 player, but having Pip there was a blessing.